About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Summary:

Suggestions to create Logic out of the Illogic that is the current tag system.

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About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Zesc 22 Dec 2020 19:21

Okay, just to get this started, this was both inspired by this thread opened by Meta and a discussion I had on the Discord Server with Xythininen and baron:
Right now, there are 62 tags that aren't used for adminstrative purposes (e.g. I exlcuded item, tale, etc., all kill-grades and all tags related to series, GoI, PoI or contests), but many of them are overlapping, unecessary or just confusing. Here is a list of them:

+Show list

• acoustic
• alchemy
• alive
• animal
• animate
• antimemetic
• artifact
• artificial-intelligence
• audio
• autonomous
• avian
• biohazard
• biological
• botanical
• cadaver
• clockwork
• corrosive
• daemonic
• disruptor
• edible
• emphathic
• energy
• entity
• equipment
• explosive
• extradimensional
• extraterrestrial
• food
• frequency
• generator
• historical
• hostile
• humanoid
• inactive
• insect
• location
• medical
• metamorphic
• meteorological
• military
• mind-affecting
• occult
• pathogen
• physics
• plant
• radiation
• reality
• reanimation
• remote-ability
• robotic
• sapient
• satellite
• sentient
• statue
• stone
• supply
• support
• terror-weapon
• transfigurative
• vehicle
• wmd

Now, for the opening post, I won't suggesting anythign outraging, but want to name the following tag combinations that appear to be overlapping:

• botanical and plant
• edible and food
• acoustic and audio
• biohazard and pathogen (arguable)

Now, there are also some tags that could perhaps be dropped (frequency comes to my mind), but those must be discussed seperately.
Other tags defenitly have a large overlap (like alchemy, demonic and occult) that might be suitable to be replaced with an umbrella term.
But this is just an opening post to unit the multiple discussions some place.

So, I'm mostly interested in everyone's thoughts on the matter of Tagging and Tag Policy, what they expect of a good tag system and what other proposals might be made.

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Meta Wonderrat 24 Dec 2020 03:52

I am in favour of a revamping of the tag-system. The problem I see is the definitions of "overlap".

I would say tags should be considered to be combined into one tag if:

1. There is no possible way that one tag does not necessitates the other (inedible food)
2. The replacement tag is not to general (magic)
3. No information is lost if only the new tag is applied (aquatic is not the same as fish)

Also I do not believe a re-tagging of all articles at once should be expected.

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I am so sorry this got so long

Zesc 24 Dec 2020 21:25

I agree with most of this. For social tagging to work in any way, the tags must be deployed in a coherent way across the entire site, or searching for one won't have the intended results.

However, about your third point, consider that social tagging is a picture book example of semantic fields; therefore, some tags are hypernyms or hyponyms of others. To take your aquatic and fish example: sure, the former does not imply the other, but the other way around there is a definite causation¹. So it must be taken care of such requirements when discussing the tagging system.
Coming to think of it, I think every single Item of the Insurgency is part of (at least) one of four broad categories: location (places, buildings, etc.), phenomenon (spells, memetic effects, pretty much everything non-physical) entity (creatures, personell, deitys) and object (all usable physical things). I can not think of anything that wouldn't be covered by these, and would consider them somewhat "elementary" to the system.

I don't think "re-tagging" would be our greatest worry. Right now, there are 56 Items (give or take), and tagging them requires harldy more than a read (which most people have done anyway) and a quick table to check against. Sure, it is a menial task. but if "at once" is stretched to a week or so, we can mobilize a few people to get it done without major effort. (Not that I want to get it done asap. Better discuss this for months to get it right then hurry and end up none the wiser.)

Last but not least, another thing to mention: some of the tags are severely underdefined. I asked baronjoe why his Antonio's Cigars were tagged equipment, and whilst I don't want him to dictate how to tag his works, there defenitly is an inconsistence between things that have this tag (Ghost Gas Masks and Antonio's Cigars) and those that don't, but could conceivably have it under an definition that als encompasses cigarettes (like the "Life is Pain" Painkiller or Neural Headphones).
Another example would be support and disruptor — I honestly don't know what these are even meant to describe. It's more a role description for a champion in a MOBA game then something intuitively understandable like robotic.

Footnotes

1. Except perhaps Space Sharks. But then, if I see it as a challenge to intentionally defy tags, I can creat non-edible food, too.

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Re: I am so sorry this got so long

Meta Wonderrat 26 Dec 2020 00:44

1. I agree that it could be done in a week.
2. How do you draw the line with entities tied to objects?
3. The "equipment" tag is usually used for disposable or renewable things, making it more appropriate for the painkillers than the cigars.
4. "Support" means only deployed in combination with something else, that something being expected to be the "main hitter" in the operation. The military term is older than the game term. This maybe needs to be broken up into more specific tags like combat-support and medical-support.
5. "Disruptor" as I understood it means "we have no use for this other than it being a problem others have to deal with". I don't believe we currently have something (in the official arsenal) that would qualify.

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Re: I am so sorry this got so long. Again.

Zesc 26 Dec 2020 12:11

1. I agree.
2. I don't think these tags have to be mutually exclusive, in only claim that one has to always apply. In fact, there is a precedent for this already on the wiki, the Shifting Armoury which is both, and carries both tags.¹
3. Well, I hopefully am allowed to quote Baronjoe on this from the Discord Server:
   »Equipment can be refered to items that can be operated to some capacity.«²
   whereas AtypicallyAzathoth argued that:
   »so the "equipment" tag should be used only in reference to something that can be controlled and operated, in my opinion«
   with the ceveat to both flaws being that it applies to most Items that aren't entities and genereally being to broad of an definition for being usefull.
   This eludes to the greater problem that there is no policy — if you define it to usually mean something, we run into the problem that exactly two pages use it so far. We can't blame baron for misappropiating this tag if there has been no other precedent for it that the [[Ghost Gas Masks]]] for over 6 years.
4. I am acutely aware of the many different meaning of "support", I only picked the gaming term for an easier rhetoric sell. Just as equipment, support migth suffer from being generally to broad of a definition. Afterall, do the Blood Berries count as "support"? I can hardly see them weaponized. Afterall, the CI only keeps around Items they deem suitable for their interest, e.g. supporting their agenda in one way or another.
5. The tag disruptor is currently carried by the Ward Of Zephyr.
   I personally would have understood this as a sort of shock weapon. Not a terror-weapon, but something designed to disrupt and hamper enemy operations so they are unsuited to properly react on a follow-up attack. Like how the Flickering Lights could be used to "disrupt" enemy communications and deny their capabilities to react on a subsequent raid.
6. What is up with research? What does it mean, and why is it inexplicably only carried by Item Storage and Facilities?

I think there should be a Guide Document about the meaning of tags, perhaps with an simple checklist for each like this:

Does the Item cause chemical degradation or exhibits properties of acids or bases? If yes: it is corrosive.

I think for the majority of tags, this would be fairly simple and uncontroversial. But the few outliers need to be discussed. (Also, it would be possible to create likely tags in advance, if that is necessary and helps the the diversification of the site.)

Footnotes

1. Also turns out I'm the instigator of alchemy. Ooops.

2. I still haven't figured out how to utilize blockquotes in a list. I managed to get them properly indented, but afterwards, a new list starts counting from 1 again. So instead take my french quotes.

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Last edited on 26 Dec 2020 12:17 by Zesc Show more

Re: I am so sorry this got so long. Again.

Meta Wonderrat 27 Dec 2020 17:11

1. I think we should prolong the discussion on the equipment tag. The fact that three people have three different opinions on what it means should be enough to show that the tag is confusing and in need of a definition.
2. I once attempted a tag-guide (Link to sandbox). It was more meant as humerus than a practical checklist.
3. Support needs to be defined as well. As it is currently used it is ether so general that it says nothing (everything supports something in most cases) or is ill-applied throughout the articles (when seen in light of my "secondary masseur" interpretation).
4. Other tags that are used only once need to be reconsidered as a whole. I would do so using this question: Is the tag only used once because other things which deserve the tag have not been written yet or are the other things already written, but did not know to apply the tag?
5. Quoting people is fine, as long as it can be seen where the quote begins and ends. The one saying the quote should also be mentioned, otherwise I don't see a necessity for a standardised "quoting system" (French away as you please).

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Re: I am so sorry this got so long. Again.

Zesc 27 Dec 2020 19:35

1. I defenitly agree. Another confusing tag might be audio, which is a meta tag and not a descriptive one as I originally though.
2. That looks already good (and made me smile), I'll eyeball tag guides on other wikis and perhaps try to write one myself. Most should be rather easy, and if I encounter issues with defining a tag, that should tell us it might not be as intuitive as the others.
3. Masseur? Sorry, I don't understand (but have a rather bizzare "CI Spa Day" image in my head now). But yes, this might be oen of those tags that are to general. I think weapon is a good example: this tag does not exist, perhaps because it is to broad. However, terror-weapon, wmd and military exist, covering the single niches pretty well.
4. I've compiled a comprehensive list of the one-off tags used in the wiki. I will commit to the sin an post it seperately in a non-reply post, both for brevity reasons and so people have an easier time discussing it.
5. Last but not least: wtf does "stoffel" mean? I don't necessarily mean the tag, but the word as a whole. It appears to have no meaning in english as far as I know.

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All the one-off tags compiled

Zesc 27 Dec 2020 20:16

This list contains all descriptive tags that were only used once, excluding meta, research and stoffel, which aren't descriptive item tags and PoI or GoI tags.

They make up 28 out of 62 overall tags, so nearly half of them. The biggest offenders are Quaesitor, Matchmaker, the Seismic Rodents and the Ward Of Zephyr.

Colour Code:
Should be removed
Should be kept
Needs to be discussed
Additional annotations as footnotes.

+Show Table

acoustic	Seismic Rodents
alchemy	Shifting Armoury
antimemetic	Identity Receptacle
artificial-intelligence1	Quaesitor
autonomous2	Satire Truck
avian	Nevermore
botanical3	Blood Berry Plant
clockwork4	End of Days Engine
daemonic	Sekhmet
disruptor	Ward Of Zephyr
emphathic	Matchmaker
energy5	Physics Engine
extraterrestrial	Quaesitor
food6	Witching Well
frequency7	Seismic Rodents
generator8	Matchmaker
inactive	Praxedes’ Fist
insect	Terror Bites
metamorphic	Candle Wax Child
meteorological	Ward Of Zephyr
plant9	Lady Spring
reality10	Hime Akumu
reanimation	Pincer Coffin
remote-ability11	Elisabeth Kaitlyn
satellite12	Quaesitor
statue	Archangel of Scorn
stone	Molecular Corrosion Stones

Footnotes

1. Technically not the same as "robotic", still mostly covered by that one.

2. This one applies to pretty much every entity, and is much to broad.

3. Congruent with "plant".

4. Nitpick: I suggest renaming it to "mechanical" or "mechanism" or something the like, as "clockwork" is quite specific.

5. I consider "energy" to be much to broad. We could use "electricity" for that sort of energy, and perhaps "perpetuum-mobile" or "ectoentropic" for things that draw power from nothing.

6. Covered by "edible", which much more pages use already.

7. Ambigous. Does this mean physical frequencies, of periodical behaviour?

8. So this means something that creates something from nothing? I do not like "ectoentropic", but perhaps we can find a better term?

9. Congruent with "botanical".

10. What does this even mean? Reality bending? I never was too much of a fan of distinguishing between reality-bending and other anomalies, they all are the same thing breaking reality.

11. I personally consider it unnecessary to distinguish between contact abilities and contactless abilities.

12. Too specific, already covered by "extraterrestrial" in combination with "artifact".

Of course, this is only my personal oppinion, but I consider it reasonable and would like to have somebody else's input on the many blue mentions.

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Last edited on 27 Dec 2020 20:18 by Zesc Show more

Re: All the one-off tags compiled

ScaledDatura 28 Dec 2020 06:42

I feel like I should have jumped into this discussion earlier, but I never got around to it. So I'll add my opinion on some of these tags.

My thoughts

Alchemy	When I think of alchemy, I think of crusty old European guys trying to turn lead into gold. Or better put, people trying to change one kind of matter into another kind of matter outside of proper physics and chemistry. And that is what I think this tag should mean. Now it might not have many people using it currently, but when it comes to anomalies I think that will change over time.
AI	Now, AI is artificial sentience. Or intellect that was made outside of the natural law. Now that doesn't necessarily mean robotic like you said. But I feel like the CI will get a decent amount of "Frankenstein's monsters" over time. And I think creatures like that should get a tag.
Botanical	I just think it sounds better than plant. And with its dictionary definition being "relating to plants" I think it covers that category pretty well.
Daemonic	All I can really say is that this is a loaded word with tons of people having very different viewpoints on it. Now it could mean demonic, which would mean an item would directly relate to a demon or the devil. It could mean it's tying in Greek daemons, or creatures that were less-so there to torture you but more-so to help you find yourself. It could be referring to devilish or fiendish behavior. Which is more of a character trait than a tag.
Empathetic	Would this mean it's empathetic to the insurgencies cause, or that it can show empathy towards people? I think this is more of a character trait than a tag.
Energy	If energy would mean electricity, than I think that would leave out some sort of anomaly that wouldn't deal with electricity but pure energy (which kind of is electricity now that I think about it, but I think people might use the term energy with electricity in mind).
Equipment	I know meta said that this conversation should be put off, but I wanna put my two cent in on it. I think equipment should be something you would equip onto your persons. Whether it be a backpack, a mask, ammo, or a weapon. I feel that if something is disposable does not exactly make it equip-able. Same where if something is able to be operated. I feel that an anomalous forklift is not necessarily equipment, but rather a piece of machinery.
Frequency	Like you said, it could mean either periodic behavior or an actual frequency is being emitted. I think its just to broad of a word and a more specific one should be chosen. (for the frequency part, not periodic behavior)
Generator	I agree with you, but I also can't think of a better word.
Inactive	This one is pretty cut and dry in my opinion. Whether on purpose or not, it was working and it's not anymore.
Reality	I agree with you on this one too, and I think it should be removed.
Stoffel	I have no fucking clue what this means. Hell, auto-correct even flags it as wrong. I've heard people with heavy southern or mid-western american accents pronounce stifle as "stoffle" but other than that it doesn't seem to have a definition.

(Edit, forgot to add the equipment bit)

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Last edited on 28 Dec 2020 06:52 by ScaledDatura Show more

Re: All the one-off tags compiled

Zesc 28 Dec 2020 11:31

+Show my fellings about your feelings.

alchemy	Nitpicky, but isn't this pretty much just a specific hyponym of "transmutation"? I would rather tend to the latter, as "alchemy" seems to imply a certain branch of magic, and we're not going around differentiation between hexes and curses, are we? (Unless someone were to develop a rigorous magic system to use on the wiki… I'll poke our witchie about that. :P)
ai	I think that it should be "artificial-intelligence", not "ai". The lower case version (as used in tags) is not directly obvious to the casual observer, also 'ai' has some meaning (mostly positive ones?) in east asian language and might lead to confusion. Coming to think of it, isn't every "artifact" that is also "sentient" not already an AI? I'd see it as redundant.
botanical	Yup, I prefer it over "plant" too, especially because it is somewhat broader. A hippie-wife that makes flowers blossom wherever she steps (good for breaking through reinforced walls, etc.) certainly is "botanical" in nature, but not a "plant" herself.
daemonic	I agree. Especially since it is often hard to differentiate between Demons and Angels. Could we use "religious" instead?
empathetic	I think this is used in a fashion of something that knows how you feel, like an emotional mind reader. That term is also used in other contexts relating to psionics, etc.
energy	Well, from a physicists angle, everything involves energy to some extent, and I really don't like how it is used as a synonym to "power" or description of metaphysical forces in many speculative-fiction works. Sternly looks at every Super Hero story ever.
generator	In want for a better term, I have a couple of suggestions. The first is petty theft: "ectoentropic", but the SCP Wiki found no troubles with it. My suggestion would be "ex-nihilo", meaning that something is created from nothing. My last one would be "regenerative", but I think that can be confused with healing. Also, not everything that is renewable necessarily does this by violating conservation of mass and energy.
inactive	Now, the question is why the CI would even keep a broken thing around? I think a list of Items lost or destroyed in operation is a nice application, but overall, I am not too sure about the overall meaning of "inactive". It could just mean not "autonomous" or the like. I would favour rephrasing.

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Re: All the one-off tags compiled

ScaledDatura 28 Dec 2020 18:50

More of my thoughts

Alchemy	You can change the tag to transmutation. All I really feel is that there should be a tag for my previous statement.
AI	First of all, I just used Ai instead of artificial intelligence because I'm too lazy to type the whole thing out. I'm not saying the tag should be ai. Second of all, "isn't every "artifact" that is also "sentient" not already an AI?" Not necessarily, Redemion is a sentient artifact. But that doesn't mean it was made in a lab or by people. It might have for all we know, but its dialog hints at it just popping into existence one day.
Daemonic	I was worried about bringing up the religious aspect of the word. But I do feel that religious is a more appropriate tag. However, would that extend to cults, religious goi, and gods? Or just item based around preexisting religions?
empathetic	I guess that makes sense.
Energy	Honestly, I never quite liked physics. So I'm not a fan of the whole "everything involves energy to some extent" angle. But I do feel electricity gives a different connotation to energy. Kinda like how a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square. Electricity is energy, but talking about energy doesn't always mean you're talking about electricity.
Generator	Ectoentropic defiantly works for them, but I also wonder if that's like copying off of them. I mean it's all a connected universe so I guess it makes sense to use similar terminology. But it feels like a mouthful to me.
Inactive	Just because something is broken doesn't mean it should be thrown away. There is always an offchance that it could be fixed or started up again. And even if it was thrown away, it would be dumb to say it's still working on its report. Or to even get rid of the report altogether. You can learn stuff from broken things, like how did it break and can we avoid it in the future. And even If an item just stopped working one day it would be dumb to throw it out. What if it started back up as quick as it stopped.

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Re: All the one-off tags compiled

Meta Wonderrat 29 Dec 2020 19:30

Thoughts:

1. alchemy is part of transmutation, but not identical
2. artificial-intelligence has a sci-fi trope, but deliberately created intelligence should also be considered under this tag (meaning intelligence that does not emerge from non-anomalous biology).
3. Botanical can replace plant as long as we tell that to people (they might try to reintroduce it).
4. Daemonic is actually a spectrum debate? I think there are things that are very identifiable as demonic or devilish, but there are also demons that might not look like it. Religious can be a tag involving all forms of worship (real and fictional).
5. Electricity is not energy. Heat can be energy, as can be potential energy (like a spring). The energy tag is a bit to general and I would prefer it to be split into its appropriate sub-tags.
6. generators do not necessarily create things from nothing (as long as the definition wishes to include real world generators). Might need to be split too.
7. Inactive: I actually introduced a solution for this in "Fractal Music Box". If it is inactive we just put it into a museum backlog. Nicely secured and gone from view and Insurgency facilities, where it might get damaged. I am in favour of keeping the tag. If an Inactive item is in the arsenal for some reason, it might just mean that it is to be considered in future endeavours or its effect ripple on and someone might need to know that while in the field.

I quite like this collapsible approach. Good idea.

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Last edited on 29 Dec 2020 19:31 by Meta Wonderrat Show more

Re: All the one-off tags compiled

Zesc 30 Dec 2020 20:24

+ Please don't click me.

1. I took the freedom to change "alchemy" to "transmutation" in my Shifting Armoury. I think it is much more generally applicable, but if anyone wants to re-introduce the tag in the future, I won't stop them.
2. But isn't this exactly the case of the "sentient" + "artifact" = "artificial-intelligence" combination I mentioned earlier?
3. Another one in favour of "botanical"? Should we go ahead and change Lady Spring? I doubt anyone would mind, but better ask before breaking things.
4. Well, not directly a spectrum debate. It is just a description that makes it hard to draw a line. I think the Satire Truck would count as "demonic" too, wouldn't it? Also, just like different sorts of magic, there are different sorts of such entities; spirits, yokai, you name them. That's why I suggested "religious" and/or "mythological".
5. I agree with Meta on the energy topic. It's just way too generic.
6. The tag "generator", at least following its current usage (by Matchmaker) and it's definition in Meta's WIP Tag Guide, I would guess it only applies things that are ectoentropic? Anyway, another tag that is insufficiently defined.
7. I might have to reconsider the "inactive" tag.

Also, a I had a (seemingly) profound realization: tags on the wiki are not organized as a web, but rather a tree. And this has interesting implications on the tagging philosophy: if we pick a tag at the top (for example "entity") it will yield many hits, but be to generic to give a reader what they are looking for. If we pick a tag at the bottom of the branches, it will be very specific (for example "avian"), but yield few to none results.
Therefore, we need to find a balance that gives the reader enough hits from the arsenal, but also those that have enough similarities to another to still be potentially interesting.
I think this gives a somewhat reasonable criterion to judge tags by.

Edit: Uh, Meta, I think your Fractal Music Box lacks tags besides "item".
Edit to the Edit: Okay, the Vending Machine of Doom is also untagged. Given that you were given leeway in handling it, could you take a look too?

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Last edited on 30 Dec 2020 21:48 by Zesc Show more

Re: All the one-off tags compiled

Meta Wonderrat 01 Jan 2021 16:17

Thoughts

1. A computer running an AI is not a sentient artefact, as the sentience is not bound to the artefact.
2. We can go with religious and mythological. I just think the concept of demons is poorly defined enough to make it a spectrum. "You are 0.2 % demonic making you a lesser demon." "I told you I am the mysterious Colordog." "Religious or Mythological?" "I told you that I come from the realm of imagination and light." "File this one as extraterrestrial and move on."
3. As far as I see it a tree nature from generic to specific is not special in organisational endeavours where multiple aspects need to be applied. The web structure comes from interlinking articles with each other, something that mostly happens with hubs on this site. I think we should deploy tags as they seem to fit until we can get a proper tag guide going. I thought of something like we do it in series (see series hub, guide to writing a series). When enough pieces on the site warren a tag, we add that tag to the guide and than deploy the tag site wide. With time fewer and fewer tags need to be added and eventually we have a tag guide with all relevant and useful tags that is natural grown.
4. I will check whether I can add some tags to FMB and check the situation on VMD as well.
5. Still no clue on the Stoffel mystery. Stoffel is a known name for plush-toys in Germany and the word "stoff" is German for matter or fabric. Also apparently a way to call someone "primitive" or "idiot".

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Last edited on 01 Jan 2021 16:20 by Meta Wonderrat Show more

Time to make a stupid "Tag Team" pun.

Zesc 13 Jan 2021 19:28

Now to draw everyones attention to the newly created Tag Guide, here a quick reminder:

There is now a Tag Guide, quick look at it and contribute!

Anyway, the rest of this post will be dedicated to me nitpicking about exactly that thing. In a nicely ordered list.

But before that: It perhaps makes sense (considering we already have "avian" and "insect") to include tags for every of the big vertebrate classes (e.g. mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, fish), three for the big arthropod ones (insects, arachnids and crustacea) and one for molluscs. That's a total of 9 tags that are neither too specific nor as generic as "animal" (wich could be ditched or kept) and I trust our users to be able to sort any animal in one of these categories (compared to something like "anisoptera" or "annelid") so it should be a solid middle-ground.

antimemetic

I agree that "antimemetic" as used at the SCP-Foundation (and coined by Sam Hughes, a.k.a. qntm) perhaps works as well in Insurgency contexts. However, I'd suggest replacing it with something like "contraperceptual" as a hyponym of "mind-affecting". I can see that a self-concealing/amnesia-inducing property is not too rare around the site, and using "mind-affecting" for every instance would just be egregious.

clockwork

I think "mechanical" or something like that would be clearer. Something running on pistons and springs plays also into that trope, but isn't technically a clockwork. Perhaps merge it with "mechanism".

entity

Definitely keep. I don't know why it is under "Needs discussion".

fr

What is this going to be absorbed by? It dedicates translated french articles, doesn't it?

historical

The main issue is see with this one is that it doesn't give a clear impression of what it exactly means? Is the Item just old? Was it of historical significance? If either, when does the recent past stops and history begins? Given that this tag is used also quite incongruently across the wiki, I would vote to toss it.

hostile

Still unsure what this one's supposed to mean. I vote for removing it.

interview

This description is wrong: it does not denote articles with interviews, but stand-alone ones (as listed under Insurgency Files).
Additionally, I would consider this (just as with "tale" and "item", "supplement" etc.) also as a meta tag.

meta

Given that this has many meanings (and the SCP wiki still having trouble because of this specific tag) it most definitely needs a very good explanation.

metamorphic

Can be absorbed by "transfigurative".

military

Unsure about this one being absorbed? There appears to be no general "weapon" tag (which should perhaps be added?).

physics

Just like "energy", this one just isn't concise enough. It can mean all and nothing. Vote for removal.

sepia

Why is this tag a Legacy one? Do you hate them so much? They're not the World Parahealth Organization… ^^

wip

Let's be honest: this one is only used on Personnel Designations, which I consider already quite questionable. It can be safely removed.

wmd

I'd keep it, but suggest spelling it out as "weapon-of-mass-destruction" to avoid confusion.

EDIT:

May I point out that the french CI site already has a tag guide to draw inspiration from?
Here it is. I do speak french, so I could help with it, if needed.

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Re: Time to make a stupid "Tag Team" pun.

Meta Wonderrat 14 Jan 2021 03:06

1. What is an entity and where do you draw that line?
2. clockwork and mechanism do go well together, seconding that.
3. I want to spell out french-translation. If you don't know what fr is it will not tell you.
4. If we were to change it into an interview-file only tag you would be right about the description. Question: Should we do that and why? Otherwise we would apply it to things that have interviews, but have not tagged that.
5. I agree with the assessment of "metamorphic".
6. Military is a bit to general. We talked about splitting it in this very thread.
7. "Sepia" is still going? I thought by now it was just a concluded and than removed CI-Storyline.
8. Well, the guide we are working on would also qualify. But sure, after that we can remove it.
9. To be honest, I did not know what the "wmd" tag was. Absorb for this one than.
10. EDIT: You may take inspiration from the French guide. I have no clue about French, so the best I could do with it is to put it through a translator, which would probably produce undesirable results.

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Last edited on 14 Jan 2021 03:09 by Meta Wonderrat Show more

Re: Time to make a stupid "Tag Team" pun.

Zesc 14 Jan 2021 12:31

1. Of course the term "entity" is one ruined by philosophers for eternity™, but I think the concept itself as an singular agent/unit actor is clearn enough. Anything that is able to decide and act on its own, be it a person, a creature, a deity, spirit, sentient machine, etc. The problem is that the alternatives are either not any cleared or too narrow (a non-selfaware monster is no "person". A non-corporeal thing like a tulpa isn't exactly a "creature").
2. —
3. Okay, changing that (or just making it "french") is understandable. I support this decision.
4. Well, so far this tag is used exactly as this: to denote interview-articles. And I think this is also the intended purpose, given that it is used for the ListPages-module. Of course we could create a separate tag for all Items that contain interviews, but then we should also have one for experiment logs, on for exploration logs, etc. I think it would become a hassle quite soon, but isn't necessarily a bad idea.
5. That… hm… I argued against a tag "weapon", but now I think it's a good idea? I might be confused. Or you are. Or both of us.
   Anyway, I'm not sure where "military" would get absorbed into (since it is rather being splitted). I need to overthink this.
6. Well, one of my current drafts includes (a rather brief mention of) Sepia. I wouldn't call them quite dead yet. (What's with the White Empress, too? She got no tag so far… should she?)
7. Hmm… that's true. Perhaps we could have an adminstrative page to note all WIP pages so they get finished asap.
8. I can live with an absorption, but I'd like to know by what it gets absorbed ("terror-weapon"?)
9. Well, looking at them, I mainly notice tags we don't have (anymore?), like "fungus" or "field-gear"? The latter one even has a rather sneazy description that could come in handy with replacing the "equipment"-tag. "(Tag used for) Items that are handed out to agents and regularly used by agents in the field."

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Re: Time to make a stupid "Tag Team" pun.

Meta Wonderrat 14 Jan 2021 20:31

1. If the description for entity is like you describe, it should be clear to stay.
2. We can stay with the current meaning of "interview". I will change the description accordingly.
3. I think the confusion is because I mixed in the discussion about the supply/equipment tag. military/supply/support/weapon/equipment into field-gear, mass-deployment, terror-weapon and heavy-weaponry?
4. Sepia reported to be still alive, change to "Keep".
5. The white empresses is in three articles so she should probably be tagged.

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Last edited on 14 Jan 2021 20:31 by Meta Wonderrat Show more

Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

DrCaduceus 16 Jan 2021 19:33

• clockwork -> mechanical - go for it!
• fr and other translated works - I support french-branch as some media, such as images, that will be published from other branches in the future do not fall as translations.
• historical - never used this tag to refer to old articles out-of-universe; only in-universe. Such a classification is executed poorly, however. I suggest removal for the time being.
• hostile - I'd define it as an Item actively hostile to the Insurgency. I wouldn't miss it, though.
• interview - Hooo boy.
  • On one hand, I tried to make separate tags for different Tale formats; tale, log, interview, transcript, etc.
  • On the other hand, this came back to bite us as many articles overlap in these tags, appearing multiple times in Insurgency Files. The baseline we historically followed from the SCP Wiki is that "tale" always takes precedent. The Library's equivalent is "entry," and some of you might have an idea for an equivalent term for us.
  • In summary, I support the use of a "tale" tag or equivalent to cover these for the time being. We also need to define this and related terms further.
• meta - meta/self-referential/fourth wall-breaking works. This was largely derived from the Foundation circa. 2014. Give it a fancy rebrand. Otherwise, remove it.
• metamorphic -> transfigurative - approved. Note that this form of the word should be followed for other terms to be consistent, e.g. "-ive" as in the adjective form instead of "-ion" as in the noun.
• military - too broad a term for Insurgency armaments and armed forces; remove and split into more specific tags, as we need terms for equipment, weaponry, special forces, etc.
• physics - if this tag was used liberally, it would be the most popular tag in this site. Anomalies that affect the laws of physics especially should be defined more specifically.
• sepia - the tales about Derek Crowley and Brackish Lake directly reference SEPIA. Sekhmet, Elisabeth, Jack Mason, and Nevermore have also all encountered or mentioned SEPIA. And it's high time I brought them into the fray, so expect to see more of them :-)
• wip - go remove it.
  • The Personnel Desginations page has been given more than half a decade to mature but it never has. It's basically Security Clearance Levels, not the most imaginative take considering "designations" implies more.
• wmd - spell out or replace. If "mass-destruction" can be a suitable alternative, I'd allow it, or some other term as the full phrase is a mouthful.

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Zesc 20 Jan 2021 19:50

(Okay, bolding tags is seriously a good idea. I'll copy it.)

• fr I am not really sold on french-branch over french-translation… in the end, french seems to do it just fine and isn't excluding anything? I don't know, is it possible people may think this is the Item's nationality? I don't think so.

• historical Oh darn, you are right, it isn't even clear whether this tag is in-universe or not. (Though it'd technically overlap with archvied.)

• hostile Hmm… looking at the two articles with this tag, Candle Wax Child makes some sense, though I'm torn about Astollia. Perhaps replacing this with a tag denoting everyone who is serving the Insurgency against their beliefs, whether it is trough coerxion or mind-control. This would naturally also cover thing hostile.

• meta I think this is still poorly defined and has lead to major confusion on other wikis. I want to note especially that self-referentiality, being a "format screw" and breaking the 4th wall are entirely different things. I think the former hardly ever needs a special mention (after all, many Items mention the making of their own reports etc.) so no extra tag needed. The second one is… something I personally would like to avoid, since the CI is more "freestyle" anyway, and I wouldn't want something like the Sporal Contagion to be considered anything special because of such a tag. So only the last remains, and I think "fourth-wall-breaking" does a much better description then "meta", which could also mean wiki meta-information or whatever. I vote for removal or renaming&redefinition.

• transfigurative Question: would the precedence of the adjective over the noun apply to everything? With some things like "satellite" or "vehicle" that turns nice and intuitive terms and makes them a mouthful.

• military So what would be the replacements? "field-gear" looks promising, but what about everything else? I'm sure tanks, fighter jets and the like can be absorbed by "vehicle", but what with all the rest? Is "heavy-ordinance" appropriate? We could also use "intelligence", but that could lead to confusion.

• physics I agree with Cad.

• wmd I would suggest absorption by "heavy-ordinance", supra.

By the way: As it turns out, every wiki except the english one has a Tag Guide. I can't tell about the chinese, but the french (and by drawing optical similarities too it, also the spanish one too) appears to have many "Xyz: is an xyz or exhibits properties of one" which we could perhaps do better.

Another thing: I'll just go ahead and create "white-empress". Won't do any harm and is long overdue. As a brief mention seems to suffice for a tag, I'll also dish out some well-deserved sepia on my way.

One last thing (I feel like Steve Jobs announcing Smash features…) I think many people just thought the Personnel Designations page is closed and that nobody should add any further lore. We could ask the community — I for example would love to give my two cents to the "Writing Guide" part.

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Decisions

DrCaduceus 21 Jan 2021 12:46

• fr - Change to French translation.
• historical - Indefinite removal from lack of relevance.
• hostile - Remove.
• interview - Still need your thoughts.
• meta - First two points taken. Too informal to go with "fourth-wall-breaking," now that it's been repeated to me. I think "self-referential" is a good replacement from both in- and out-of-universe. Now, should we replace "meta" with it or remove the tag entirely?
• transfigurative - Replaces metamorphic.
  • reply: Good question. It depends on the purpose of the word. Obvious nouns like vehicle, satellite, and animal should be kept as nouns. Some words, like transform or regenerate, have different forms as an adjective or noun -e.g. transformation, transformative. For these words, which are mostly verbs, we should use the adjective form.
• military - Indefinite removal.
  • Commentary below.
• sepia - Gracias.
• white-empress - Muchas gracias.
• wmd - heavy-ordnance doesn't have the gravitas, and brings to mind a mundane high-yield explosive. I like the word, though, it definitely has a use elsewhere.
  • I've done a little digging. I think cataclysmic has a nice ring to it. I'd be cool replacing with this.

I've been thinking, there's a lot of room to grow for how we distinguish Items through our naming systems. The majority of our tags either describe something in Usage or Report, after all. Not at a Staff capacity, but as members, it would be good to see you all experiment with tags pertaining to the details of an Item's Usage.

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Re: Decisions

Zesc 21 Jan 2021 16:57

• interview Oh well. I would favour "keep as is until we reach the point where we discuss special tale-tagging in depth". It worked out so far, so let's focus on Items first.

• meta I am torn between removing it entirely and replacing it. Let's see what the others have to add.

• cataclysmic Well… the problem I see with this is that it doesn't really makes a difference between a targeted cataclysm (like a WMD or ecological warfare) and something that just happens to be very destructive (as in having severe collateral effects).

About the last paragraph: well… mostly Report, isn't it? I think "support" and even "disruptor" were a stumble in the right direction, but lacked system. Think about how the French wiki is splitting their arsenal into Offensive, Defensive, Logistical, Medical and Support. Perhaps we could follow something in this vein? I try to come up with something like that.

I personally see tags mostly as something out-of-universe for ease of the readers' site-surfing habits and nothing that should be necessarily tied to in-universe things.

(R.I.P. Parahealth.)

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Re: Decisions

DrCaduceus 22 Jan 2021 06:43

Systems:
The French system sounds good although I'm not fully satisfied with it. There's room for innovation. We can hatch plans for a couple different versions and select the best qualities of each.

In-Universe:
You know, I see what you're saying. Tags should stay out-of-universe and I'll keep that perspective in mind as we add new ones.

Decisions:

• interview: Retain, alongside tale, incident, log, transcript, and essay for the time being.
• meta: You know what, my fever dreams can function fine without the meta tag. I've chosen to remove it. Should future articles need the tag in the future, however, I'm convinced by self-referential above the original.
• cataclysmic: Either way, a highly-destructive Item should have its own distinct tag. Bell of Entropy, End of Days Engine and Seismic Rodents are the only three currently holding the old tag. I plan on adding Sekhmet and Praxedes Fist as cataclysmic Items, and Qual likely qualifies. It wouldn't be a 1:1 successor to wmd, but it functionally supplants the role.

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Meta Wonderrat 26 Jan 2021 23:02

edible: When do we draw the line? Is poison edible? Should this mean "intended for oral consumption"?
alive: Do we include viruses? How about things that should not be alive, but could be mistaken as being alive? Do we say to be alive you need replicating cells?
reality: What is this tag and do we need it?
artifact: Does everything count as long as it is altered by someones intent?

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Zesc 27 Jan 2021 19:52

• edible: I would guess so. Didn't we choose this one over "food" because it was slightly broader. So I would also count poison meant to be mixed into food or power pills or those paper-wafers that apply temporary tattoos to your tongue or whatever.
• alive: It might be dumb, but I would vouch that if you can zombify it, it is (or was) alive. Zombie Shark? Zombie Tree? Yup. Zombie Robot? Zombie Statue? Not so much. Of course this is somewhat silly, but actually turns out to be a good rule of thumb. Afterall, we got "animate" for everything else. (And to answer your question: I wouldn't call a virus alive, else a prion or mRNA should be too.)
• reality: I think the consus was that it is needlessly confusing and should be confusing. See here and here.
• artifact: I think so, but with a couple of buts applied to it. First, the intent is defenitly important, isn't it? Can you create an artifact by accident? (Darn, that'd might actually be an interesting story idea.) Second, I think artifact should be exclusive with things like animals or non-materal ones?
  Actually, the more I think about it, the more "artifact" seems like a little bittle misleading, but I see no more suitable term. (I know you, Meta, speak german, so I'd throw in "Schöpung" or "Werk" or "Erzeugnis", which all won't map to english…)

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Meta Wonderrat 29 Jan 2021 12:59

1. I implemented edible.
2. Zombie Robot is actually a nice idea. I believe there is a popular gaming genre that is just Zombie-Robots (it is FNAF).
3. Reality is scheduled for removal.
4. Coming from the German angel I would go with "creation", actually maps quite nicely. But sadly the english term as a tag is misleading. It might be confused with what "generator" was. "Man-Made" and "Non-Man-Made" might be usable.
5. "animate" so is distinctively not alive? If I had a pet flying sword that has behaviors that can evolve, would it qualify as alive? I think the difference between "alive" and "animate" could be its adaptability to new situations.
6. "autonomous" would be part of the consideration too now. Is the demon truck alive?
7. Quick idea: We make up grades of being alive. From cells/bacteria (Grade A), Viruses and things that live by taking over other stuff (Grade B), it moves and learns but we don't know why "Living" Statue (Grade C) and it moves but is preprogrammed and cant break free of its creators intent (Grade D) to was "alive (any grade)" but is not anymore (Grade F). This system would be able to handle almost anything we throw at it. It was inspired from what I could gather about the old "Kill-Grade-System".
8. This grade system would replace the following tags: alive, animate, artificial-intelligence, autonomous, cadaver and reanimation.

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Zesc 29 Jan 2021 15:16

"Reality is scheduled for removal." is such a nice sentence…

That was exactly the problem I had with the word "creation". However, I think we might be dancing around the point here? "Artifact" here, "man-made" there - could be "artificial" exactly the term we were looking for? It feels obvious in hindsight.

+ The remainder discusses Meta's pitch and is only tangentially related to tagging.

I really like that idea and think it is useful for more than just tagging.

It reminds me a bit about the GOC's VERITAS system (which sadly one provides conveniently colour-coded auras) that also detects life-signs, more or less. But I don't see how this is connected to the Kill-Grades.

The fact that the Item Template always had the (optional) part

Living:	optional -Y/N-
Sentient:	optional -Y/N-

always somehow bugged me (after all, when it is obvious, this isn't needed, and in the edge cases, Y/N doesn't get you far). But I can imagine it replaced with some sort of aliveness spectrum (I would rather tend towards a spectrum ranking from most definitely alive to inanimate rock, categories are harder to grasp). In that case i would replace "sentient" with "sapient", but I guess this is mostly academic/nitpicking. ^^

The great thing is that it also makes a lot of sense in-universe, with the CI dealing with loads of weaponized anomalies and stuff like necromancy and possession, they rather have a better guideline than "If it bleeds, we can kill it." about when something is truly neutralized.

Perhaps we can get some of the authors to adopt this system, I think it's small but sweet. Also invites experimentation: can you have something deader than dead?

I think the SCP Wiki has to many incongruent categorization systems for stuff, and am critical of the CI making the same mistake, but this is the small but sweet stuff that can help distinguishing this place.

Edit: So apparently if a collapsible's link text is too long, it won't line-wrap… hussah for brevity.

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Meta Wonderrat 07 Feb 2021 19:24

Ok, now I gave everyone enough time to object.

In terms of tags:

We do a life-scale. The life-scale as proposed by me will replace the following tags:
alive
animal
animate
autonomous
cadaver
reanimation

artificial-intelligence (maybe)

Next order of business:

antimemetic: Do we need it?

artifact absorbed by artificial

combining:
transfigurative
transmutation
metamorphic

as "altering"?

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Zesc 08 Feb 2021 15:45

1. I object with the first two grades in your life-scale: I think that "alive" is much broader than "animal" - I certainly think more about dogs being alive than mould or sponges. Also, let's look if some other people have inputs for this, I'll ask around.
   Huh, upon thinking more about this scale, I noticed this how pretty much all of these things are technically "autonomous", ranking from things that are alive, to things that were never living to begin with, to things that are dead. - I could live with that (pun intended) but think we should also change the "Sentient: Y/N" part of the Item form accordingly to something like "Autonomous:" with a simialr sliding scale from fully sapient to completely inert.
2. As the perpetrator behind antimemetic, it's neither a clear yes nor a clear no. I think that things that make people forget/ignore certain things or just completely oblivious to straigth forward logical conclusions are a stable when writting about anomalies, and the overlap with "mind-affecting" is not always given. However, I'd certainly agree to change and/or broaden this tag when possible. Something like "non-perceivable", "cognition-inhibiting" or something like that.¹
3. metamorphic: Ahem. This one doesn't exist anymore, it was absorbed a while ago already.
   The other two tags should stay as they are, imho. There is a massive difference between altering other things (transmogrifying with a spell, Input/Output system, manipulating matter) and altering oneself (shapeshifting, self-reassembly, modular build) so I'd vote for keeping it as it is.

Footnotes

1. Edit: Sniffing around in the Reservoir, I discovered the term "Enigmatology" for the study of self-keeping secrets. Might be worth of consideration.

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Zesc 03 Apr 2021 21:17

So, before we completely forget about this project, I add some most likely uncontroversial definitions to the Tag Guide. ('meteorological', 'transmutation' and 'vehicle')

I also would like to dispute the definition of 'generator'. The mere act of producing something doesn't mean it is one of those (if we want to keep that particular term in the first place). Things that take an input and produce something from it are instances of 'transmutation', not generation. I think we should have a distinction for spontaneous creation of matter/energy.

I'm still wanting to follow up on Meta's spectrum Idea for the Alive/Sentient scale, but I think using a graphic can help bringing my point across, so bear with me please.

Also, is there any consensus on how much a given GoI/Canon needs to be involved in an article to warrant a corresponding tag? E.g. if I only mention then in passing (for example the Shapeless Knave, or any of my Items), should they still be tagged (in all these cases with 'goc')? Or is that too much, and we should only focus on such articles where they play a significant role?

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Meta Wonderrat 05 Apr 2021 07:47

Take your time. The silence wont get the project as long as at least one person is thinking about it.

'transmutation', not generation.

Does a normal diesel-generator generate diesel or electricity? Does it transmute diesel into electricity? My answers would be no and no.

spontaneous creation of matter/energy

That should be its own tag.

is there any consensus on how much a given GoI/Canon needs to be involved in an article

I do believe currently it is: If it is mentioned by name it gets tagged. Although this rule is not applied consistently.

I would say we should keep it this way as that is a clear "yes/no decision" and not a spectrum (What is a significant role?).

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Zesc 18 Apr 2021 20:48

Still somewhat iffy about 'generator'; just feels wrong (especialy considering the backlog this tag already has around this thread). Please consider it was originally only used by Matchmaker.

Terms for spontaneous ex-nihilo creation have already been discussed, but seem somewhat underwhelming in options as of now.

Okay, then I'll go ahead and sift through the wiki one-by-one, tagging the GoIs wherever mentioned.
Should I also create tags for some of the other GoIs, e.g. GRU Division "P" (given than the Psychotronics Division is our sister site…) MC&D, etc.? If so, should I also include stuff like the RAC?

I agree that we need a clear yes/no distinction here, but this way many articles that only mention certain GoIs in passing ("After XYZ has proven it's worth the the Insurgency after an raid on ABC facilities"/"Lost three XYZ instances in a fight with ABC") without them being a substantial part of the backstory. If we are creating tags that are reader-serving, this might dissapoint fans of the GOC/whatever who find out the article isn't really involving that GoI. (For example, I personally like to use the "List of deployments"-Appendix style, which nets my articles quite a lot of such tags.)

Also, what happens if an GoI is never mentioned in name, but only implied by context? Like "Followership of Mekhane" for the CotBG, or "[…] once broken free from the stranglehold of the self-righteous compulsive hoarders", which clearly refers to the Foundation, but does not mention them by name?

As a proposed solution, "hidden" tags exist, for example '_tag', so we could have one tag 'sepia' that is visible for users and only covers "substantial participation" of SEPIA, and one '_sepia' for system purposes that covers every single mention.

Edit: Only tagging Items and PoIs for now, simply because this would be an massive undertaking if I'd include every tale there is. Plus all the grey-zones… better not rush anything.

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Meta Wonderrat 19 Apr 2021 15:51

generator, how about we give this one an "R" and move on?

What is and is not a GoI gets kind of difficult at this point. For now I would say just stick to GOIs that art mentioned on the GOI-Page.

I like the idea of hidden tags for only brief mentions. I would say we stick to a clear yes/no when it comes to mentions, meaning if the name is not mentioned it does not get tagged.

You know, there is kind of a shortcut for the tagging. You put the exact name of the GOI in the search and have a list with all articles mentioning them by name (aka all tag eligible sites). I will join you on the track for this. Should we separate it by GOI (you take one I take one)?

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PSA 2021-06-11:

Zesc 11 Jun 2021 13:17

Yes, tagging fucntionality is down since yesterday. This appears to affect all Wikidot wikis and nobody has a clue what to do.

I'll keep you updated.

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Re: PSA 2021-06-11:

Meta Wonderrat 11 Jun 2021 14:56

Can not confirm.
Tags work fine for me. I just applied a new one here to test that as well. Clicking on tags also works fine.
Please specify the problem or confirm my findings.

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Re: PSA 2021-06-11:

Zesc 12 Jun 2021 22:01

The problem appears to be fixed as of 2021-06-13.

Previously, all articles had their existign tags disappear; you could still add new ones which worked as normal, but old ones weren't displayed. Also, the tag cloud had indeterminate issues. The issues might have been depending on user, device and/or wiki, but I have reports from all over the Wikidot scape about the issue. (Infact, it was no one less than Wanderer's Library admin Rounderhouse who brought the issue to my attention in the first place.

I'm just glad they were restored properly. Wikidot is showing its age.

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Re: PSA 2021-06-11:

Meta Wonderrat 14 Jun 2021 17:19

By coming back?

Software problems imply that the structure was being worked on. The running system would have not produced such an error.

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Meta Wonderrat 20 Jun 2021 13:46

I put forth the proposal that we give up on the D tags and I just add some descriptions and get this over the finish line already. If my work is insufficient we can fix it after the fact. Any objections?

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Zesc 20 Jun 2021 18:36

I agree that there is a need to kick this dead horse, but removing all the Needs discussion tags? Uh… that would hit stuff like 'alive'. Probably be a Verschlimmbesserung to drop an absolutely unnecessary germanism.

Also, what does the N Evaluation mean?

So, yes, there are objections. However, we can go through and kill of the R evaulated tags; nobody complained so far, and the change is minimal.

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Meta Wonderrat 21 Jun 2021 20:28

It is easier to fix something broken than create something new. If I show you a text with holes (Lückentext) I believe you would be able to fill it in in about 10 minutes. If I make it a text with missing sentences, you might take an hour or more. If I give you a blank page, well you see our sandbox update-frequency. The closer something is to completion the easier it is to complete.

N for New started 26th of January, following the introduction of "Cataclysm"

Do you suggest the removal of 2 tags as a remedy for the slow progress? This was a project that could have been done in 3 weeks. I made it complicated, by opening a discussion about the meaning of things like "alive", "entity" and "edible". Things that turned out to mean different things to different people, in the end leaving the word undefined. I am talking about rapid progress. This thing is on the main-site, has my name on it and looks like something that could have used some more sandboxing. I could take my name of it, but why not do what it says on the tin?

This is a first come first serve. So if you have a great description, don't sit on it.
I am open for changes in the procedure, but why wait when we can start now?

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Last edited on 21 Jun 2021 20:31 by Meta Wonderrat Show more

Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Meta Wonderrat 03 Jul 2021 06:02

I did some "filling in" and now I need the following:

• fini - What is that?
• sarkic - These need a GOI page and I don't know them.
• supply/support - which one absorbs which? Suggestions please.
• transfigurative - Anyone who knows a sentence to describe it and the difference to transmutation please insert it.
• Any major mistakes on my part and suggestions on how to fix it?

Once these points are concluded I will remove the Evaluations and declare the project finished.

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Zesc 07 Jul 2021 07:27

fini

No idea about that one, has been asked at least once already in this thread. My best guess would be the french word "fini" meaning "finished", e.g. being the contrary of 'wip', but at this point, we can probably remove it. Sekhmet got enough more descriptive tags already.

sarkic

It refers to these guys. They're one of the old-school GoIs and have been used a couple of times here already. Baronjoe seems to know most about them.
We should defenitly write our own page for them, instead of just copying from SCP; I had a very interesting discussion with a little birdie a while ago on the different interpretation of sarkicism (the CI seems to lean towards "lovecraftian carnal cult") and we should make that clear.
Last nitpick: probably rename this one to 'carkic-cults' or 'sarkicism', since 'sarkic' implies the Item itself is of sarkic origin, and not just connected to them (e.g. Abderra'ad mentions them in pasing, but is unrelated to them.)

supply/support

I think 'supply' will lead to confusion when there is also 'equipment' to consider (what does anomalous ammunitions counts as?) and is in its other possible meaning covered by 'generator' already (though I still don't like that one). 'support', on the other hand, might still be unnecessarily broad?

transfigurative

Transmutation changes other things, transfiguration is self-applied. Compare the Philosopher's Stone to a Werewolf. My suggestion would be:

Can alter its own structure.

or something to that degree.

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I'd have yet to scan for "mistakes", but I don't think this project will ever be finished in a meaningful way (though the Tag Guide can be released as a WIP).
One thing I want to do ASAP would be a a flowchart or other easy checkbox for authors to follow to quickly see which tags to use; mostly because it is easy to miss out the nichier ones.

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

DrCaduceus 07 Jul 2021 15:50

Fini	Kill grade designation for the Insurgency's Items of last resort. It implies many things: desperation, vengeance, the collapse of restraint or better judgement. In Sekhmet, it also suggests that she is to be weaponized once more, despite being "partially neutralized" by SEPIA as told in the appendices.	I vouch for omission from the guide.
Supply/Support	This originally describes Items with a Usage assignment revolving around its ability to produce things, i.e. Lady Spring, Bed of Wealth, and to the furthest extent, others like Shifting Armory or Vending Machine of Doom.	Recommendations: Supplier or Producer.
Transfigurative	I believe you two get the gist already.	Keep.

It comes to my understanding that certain projects just won't be finished in a reasonable amount of time in this wiki, but I'm willing to negotiate that such an issue is inherent to fixing tags, as they can change and develop over time. What matters is that we have some basics published in our guide, which will be furnished over time.

This guide should not be tagged "WIP," however. It's like tying up a suture halfway through a wound. Apart from continuing discussions and any final updates to complete the definitions list, let's consider this finished. I will provide a notice above indicating that this page will periodically update to reflect new or changed tags.

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Meta Wonderrat 07 Jul 2021 16:39

I have finished the implementation.

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

DrCaduceus 07 Jul 2021 17:02

Good work.

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Zesc 10 Jul 2021 21:17

I did a small retouch of the list:

• Bolded Table Heading
• Added '"Meta:" to the 'admin', 'french-translation', 'guide', 'haos-project2014' and 'wip' tags but removed it from 'sarkic'
• Fixed variosu SPaG issues
• Removed 'mechanical' (since it was absorbed by 'mechanism' and no longer exists)

There are, however, a couple things we probably still should discuss:

+ Open

animal

Can we shorten this one? The part about being Eukarya is superfluous.

artificial-intelligence

Not sure about the self-improvement angle — is it strictly necessary? I would suggest something like:

I thinks, but it was made without squishy meat-pieces.

collaboration

Uh, so this one's interesting. I originally though it means "open for additions by any other user", but I see it's not used like that. Perhaps we should add another tag for ongoing things like Shifty's Transmutation log?

daemonic

I don't like how "Otherworldly" and "malevolent beings from folklore" also includes fairies. Yes, this might be a personal gripe.

kill-grades

Should we probably explain them some more?

sarkic

So baron told me he only choose 'sarkic' because it was shorter to type, but appeared willing to change it to 'sarkicism' for the sake of consistency. Also, kudos to him for having already updated our GoI page with them.

That's about it. To end on a high-note, 'entity' has the best definition for that term I've ever seen.

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Meta Wonderrat 12 Jul 2021 17:05

Thoughts

animal
I went with the scientific term to make it specific. Animal in our business is very hard to define, but if you want to, give it a shot.

.artificial-intelligence
We can drop the self-improvement, but that goes against the definition of that kind of intelligence. Specifically the "learning" and "problem solving" bit. If i make a hep of corned beef intelligent, is it not "artificially intelligent"?

collaboration
Like an open-for-additions (this has to be shorter)? I would find this helpful.

daemonic
Why don't you count fairies as demonic? If you put the two concepts side by side the only difference is that the fey bewitch people so they don't stay mad at them (which might be more evil). If you say fey are not malevolent they fall out of scope right there. You could argue the difference of justified and unjustified evil here. If that is your angle.

kill-grades
No. The only reason they stay is as a link to history, they are legacy. Maybe when someone brings them back to life we can explain.

sarkic
No objections, but I don't see immediate need for action. Also thanks baron, for the update.

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Zesc 13 Jul 2021 12:35

1. Iirc (rather badly), Eukaryotes were kinda something about cellular nuclei, compared to those having free-floating DNA? This seems more like something usefull for characterizing slime molds or algea colonies, and I can easily imagine us having some genetically modified cyborg-alien that is an animal, but not eukaryotic.
2. Are you confusing technological singularities with AIs? Recursive self-improvement is not necessary; unless of course, you count learning as self-improvement?
   I won't lie, this entire thematic has been so diluted and torn apart between the fields of cognition science, machine-learning, people selling ML, science-fiction, futurism and philosophy, I'm getting the feeling we can only aim for something less wrong (pun intended) than the current version.
3. uh… 'open-for-submissions'? Not really shorter though.
   The SCP wiki is using 'co-authored' for what we currently use 'collaboration' for, which seems clearer to me.
4. I think we already discussed above how "deamon" is a term covering an inhomogenous spectrum. 'religious' was proposed for the biblical critters, and perhaps 'mythical' could cover everything from fey to bogeymen.
5. Perhaps add something like "Legacy:" infront of them? (And avert your thoughs from the fact we're pretty much tagging tags.)
6. —

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Re: About Tags and a Tagging Guide

Meta Wonderrat 13 Jul 2021 16:57

animal
That than depends on the definition of animal. We could certainly modify something out of the animal category, so the result is not an animal anymore. We might also find extraterrestrial life with animal like characteristics. How about something like what I did with humanoid? "It looks like an animal, even if one we might have never heard about".

artificial intelligence
I do recall that we test (bird) intelligence by giving them problems to solve. So yes, learning and problem solving is what I count as essential for the definition of intelligence. If a rock thinks and has always done that it is intelligent. If someone made the stone think the result is artificially intelligent (independent on whether or not the stone is manufactured silicon or garden granite).

"Meta:Interactive"
It might imply that other things do not want spin-offs if they don't have it, but it would be fit for purpose.

Demonic
You can change it, but I don't see why that would be necessary, fey are demons in a different coat of paint, as much as myths are religions just with a different level of real world commitment. You can actually see religious tendency in some fan-bases of fictional works of mythical proportion, "apple" and "marvel" comes to mind.

Kill-Grade
Tag tagging approved. May tagging get nested and have layers, so that one day on the seventh layer of tag tagging no one knows anymore what level one looks like anymore.

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Nitpicking on Article Types

Zesc 19 Jul 2021 18:59

I'm still working on the flowchart (which is actually becoming more a questionaire of sorts) and it gives me some new perspective on the tags, and their hirarchy, implications and mutual dependencies.

One thing in particular is something I noticed whilst writing the intial question: "What type of article did you wrote?"

If I glanced this correctly, there are 11 types of articles:

• author
• guide
• hub
• tale
• person-of-interest
• item
• log
• incident
• supplement
• interview
• transcript

Now, I have no issue with the first half of the list, but the last 5 (in italics) appear to me somewhat wonky.
Isn't an "Interview Log" a transcript thereof… which may act as supplement to a given article?
I, for one, see no issue in fusing these into one, especially given that interview and incident only have one article going for each of them, and there is large overlap between log and supplement.

Now that we're already here: would anyone miss pathogen? It's entirely contained within biohazard already.

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Last edited on 19 Jul 2021 19:01 by Zesc Show more

Re: Nitpicking on Article Types

Meta Wonderrat 20 Jul 2021 17:19

I believe that only "Eternal Selach" is mis-tagged and than it resolves like this:

supplement
Direct addition to a given item. Might as well could have been an addendum of the actual article, but is not strictly necessary for the actual item to make sense. Might be "interactive" or written by another author from the attached item.

transcript
The process of writing down a series of events in order. It does not need to involve an item at all. It also needs only one party talking (contrast to interview).

Interview
Involving multiple items, not directly attachable to a single article.
I agree that interview should be absorbed by transcript.

log
Logs are not bound to a transcript (event) or interview (conversation) format. They actually compile a list of things of similar nature. Perhaps the tag name must be changed, but "list-of-similar-things" is not a tag I would push. I would keep log as an entity since it is useful to have a tag that combines things in "list of things" format.

Incident
It might be a tag in the future, but for now I agree that it should be absorbed by transcript.
Perhaps it can be used on certain tales to form a tag of item deployment or Insurgency operation. Possible candidates would be "When The River Mayas Flee" and "Teal Is My Favorite Color". Perhaps we would need to go through all tales to see which tale might also be eligible, if we want to go in that direction and not simply remove the tag. (This would re-open the "Tale-Tagging Discussion".)

Also remind me to implement the Meta:Interactive tag and update this page after the mergers.

A pathogen is a biohazard and we only have one, so I agree with the absorption. Should we get more pathogens in the futur the tag could be reactivated then if necessary.

Also @Cad:
I guess you don't like the implication, but admin is a Meta tag as it relates to the real wiki and not the in-universe Administration. Should I add a disclaimer to the Tag-Guide for what the start of "Meta:" in a tags description means? In this thread it was called Tag Tagging and "Meta" is a Tag for Tags that implies that it is not part of the usual in-universe description of an article.

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Last edited on 20 Jul 2021 17:52 by Meta Wonderrat Show more

Re: Nitpicking on Article Types

Zesc 21 Jul 2021 12:17

I went ahead and axed euthanized both 'incident' and 'pathogen'. (Sporal Contagion got 'biohazard' in exchange.)

Since Tag-Tagging is becoming a thing, I also took the freedom to add the following categories. I think they make reading the Guide easier.

GoI

Self-explaining, I guess. Mostly to indicate that these tags are given to all articles, regardless of whether they're Items, Tales, etc.

PoI

Same as above. Oh yeah, I added 'white-empress' to the list, we forgot that one.

Series

Denotes tags of series (i.e. Sectors and Steal & Aleph 11 Tango).

Could we hide the 'admin' tag by making it '_admin'? It should technically be possible, but I don't see any of the others wikis doing that, so they probably have a reason?

Also, to tuck even more to discuss into thus: I don't like the way Contest submissions are currently handled, using both 'contest' and their respective tags. Do we need the former?

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Re: Nitpicking on Article Types

Meta Wonderrat 21 Jul 2021 21:32

series
Do I and "Moving-Shadows" get a tag too? Seems like that is necessary if other series have one.

interactive
Should I go and implement this one? Could be useful to have all pages you can today still add to.

admin
This might actually be a "System Tag". If I recall correctly non-admins can not edit pages with that tag. Could you go and confirm this for me? I believe that I ran into a "You can not edit this. You are not an admin." pop-up once before. Not sure if it was the tag that triggered it.

contest
I do believe we need both. One signalling that the article was produced under a specific rule-set and one to specify the rule-set. I don't know all contest names offhand and if you only see the name of the contest you would not make the connection that it is a contest, I believe.

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Re: Nitpicking on Article Types

Zesc 22 Jul 2021 10:30

1. Well, since you're the penultimate authority here in the wiki, nobody but Cad could deny you this right, and I don't see why that would happen.
2. Whilst I don't like the associations I get from "interactive" (reminds me more of a webpage that implements a CYOA or a puzzle or something), I must admit I can't think of a better name right now. Go ahead.
3. So… I can open the edit box of the main page here in the wiki (I didn't changed anything since I'm afraid to break stuff), but not in the sandbox (where I'm not a moderator), so I assume 'admin' limits to staff in general?
   However, it mustn't be a system tag, as it is possible to have certain tags affect articles like a namespace, if I'm not mistake. (I remember that the SCP wiki used this to hide the ratings of contest entries until it was over once.)
4. I missunderstood the tag here. 'contest' is for the hubs of the respective contests, whereas the individual tags are for their submissions. I'll update the Tag Guide accordingly.

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